The bitter failure named "safari and khtml"

It's a sad thing to read intelligent people uttering frivolous and unsubstantiated affirmations, harpooning around with caustic near-to-arrogance addressings and pulling a Demostene from the "height" of their perceived more inner understanding of the "grand scheme".

Yes, Zack, the colaboration between the KHTML team and Safari seems from here (read from far outside) at least superfluous if not disastrous.

Yes, I agree with most things you had to say about how hard things are, and how hard things are made to be.

But I can't agree with your tone and with your approach. The eagerness people have to see Safari modifs merged into KHTML is, I dare to think, legitimate. It was big news when Apple decided to take the KHTML code and run with it. It remained big news when things seemed to flow in both directions inbetween. But we, those who were there, with their collective nose in the code all the time, knew from the beginning that the collaboration smelled fishy. You don't need to slice at your own people, you should speak out the ugliness of the Apple behavior or you shall stay out of it at all.

So, we lost another occasion of pulling the PR we deserved. We played the careless and the kind, we forgot that the authors of gifted code have a right to refuse despising acts or even words, even though they oughtn't ask for praise or thanks.

Don't shout at the still hopeful and ingenuous ones, which are hoping to see Apple say thanks. They act from hope for Apple's actions, not from despise for KHTML team's work. Don't punish hope! Lash at the corporate treason!

We should stay a community. We should try partnering with outside players (outside because they choose so) but keep a wide open eye for abuse.

We shouldn't be afraid of saying that yes, Safari works on maps.google.com and Konqueror doesn't, but this is so because somebody took thousands of hours of coding's worth of fine library code and threw heavy money at it in a diverging effort meant to instill mischeavious competition. (At least that's my interpretation of what happened even though I can't understand why they'd choose so).

Be kind to your kin, Zack.


Listen, all I'm saying is that there is no real cooperation between Apple and KDE. Your post is longwinded and doesn't really say anything with which I'd disagree.

Did KHTML become better as a result of Apple using it? Yes of course. KHTML became a lot, lot better as a result of patches we merged from Apple folks. And you know what? We've been quiet for almost two years. No one mentioned anything because we all hoped. We still do and always will. Everytime people complained about KDE developers being lazy and not merging patches from the great Apple guys we just took it. This time I simply refused to sit back and look at another /. discussion on Safari and KHTML cooperation.

And I said already: Apple doesn't have to work with us, it's their right. But it is also my right to not be happy about it, to not be smiling and keep pretendeing everything is peachy so don't try to force me to keep doing that. I feel like we did everything we could. The ball was, is and always will be in Apple's hands. Maybe someday I'll be privilidged enough to see or maybe even understand their perspective but right now I am not a happy camper.

By zack rusin at Fri, 04/29/2005 - 00:40

I was also refering to your posts on kde mailing lists. Those aren't /.

By Cristian Tibirna at Fri, 04/29/2005 - 01:00

Ahh, yeah, those are just me being pissed off.

By zack rusin at Fri, 04/29/2005 - 01:05

Unfortunately, the MS-funded trade rags will now trot this out as a fine example of how open source is a failure. Remember last week, how the minor news of Linux no longer using Bitkeeper was depicted by the trade rags as the dramatic collapse of kernel development? Same thing.

By art cancro at Fri, 04/29/2005 - 03:05

> We should stay a community

let's start with out own.

Zack is/was frustrated, and he's not the only one. he vented a bit, that happens and is sometime exactly what is needed. it's called "blowing off steam" and can be far healthier and even more productive than keeping it in.

i see why he's frustrated, and i don't see any point or purpose to smile silently on this matter. so personally i'm more apt to give Zack a hug, a shrug and a smile than to rebuke him in my blog.

because maybe that way he'll feel appreciated by his own community and continue to do more good stuff. after all, he's done more for KDE than Apple currently has; i respect and value that.

we, as a project, are often harder on our own members than we are on anyone else, which sucks when all that person is looking for is some validation. and it also sucks when someone outside the project needs to have some clue bat action but we're too timid to engage the world on its own rough terms.

By Aaron J. Seigo at Fri, 04/29/2005 - 04:16

He has a right to be frustated and he tells so. What's wrong about it.

What is more important: How can we fix the problem. One way is to tell it. Tell the Apple users what Apple does, then they will have to react.

By elektro at Fri, 04/29/2005 - 04:31